Mystic Artes *Spoilers*

By • January 17, 2016

This post is going to contain major spoilers Phantasia and Destiny and minor spoilers for Eternia, Destiny 2, Xillia 2, and Gurren Lagann (?). I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the Mystic Arte names that we’ve been working on for Phantasia and Destiny and I can’t do it without discussing the plots to some extent. If you want to avoid any possible spoilers, skip this post!

First, a little history.

Meikuu Zanshouken (冥空斬翔剣) is Cress’s signature Mystic Arte from Tales of Phantasia. It first appeared in Tales of Phantasia PSX as a desperation attack that could only be triggered when Cress was at critical HP. It was first localized in Tales of Eternia with the name Final Justice, which was also the name that appeared in the cameo battle in the Tales of Xillia 2 localization. In ToP GBA (and I believe ToP iOS), it was localized as Dark Blade. Both of these names have their issues, but Dark Blade is definitely the worse of the two in my opinion. In-game, the arte was originally developed by Cress’s father and eventually mastered by Cress himself. Basically the two Tales characters least likely to name their signature arte Dark anything. In the end, I don’t feel that Final Justice really captures the intent either. Our interpretation of the kanji in Meikuu Zanshouken (and people are welcome to disagree) is that the intention is more like “the blade that cuts through the darkness.”

Meanwhile, on the Tales of Destiny side, Zankuu Tenshouken (斬空天翔剣) has a complicated history of its own. Zankuu Tenshouken has never appeared in a localized game. It first showed up in Tales of Destiny 2 as one of several Mystic Artes available to protagonist Kyle Dunamis. Kyle, in case you’re not aware, is Stahn’s son. When Tales of Destiny R (and the Director’s Cut after it) were released, Zankuu Tenshouken was included as the finishing move for the final form of the game’s final boss as a callback to ToD2. As a result, we have an awkward situation where a move that was quite spammable in ToD2 is one of ToDR’s most epic moves. While we’re not working on ToD2 ourselves, we wanted to make sure we weren’t sticking it with a name that feels totally out of place in a future patch. To quote ruta of Tales of Vesperia PS3 fame, we don’t want it to be “too mystical.” It would be almost as bad as naming a base arte something ridiculously over-the-top like Time Disintegration or something. Still, we need it to sound damn cool in ToDR, so we need a name that leaves some room for the player to interpret. Our interpretation of the kanji in Zankuu Tenshouken (again, disagree if you like) is that the intention is something like “the drill blade that pierces the heavens.” Defying “heaven” is particularly important given that it puts down the Lord of Ae’ther himself.

So in short, here’s what we need:

  1. Because of the mirrored style in the Japanese names, we want to make sure that a connection remains between Meikuu Zanshouken and Zankuu Tenshouken.
  2. Neither of these artes are about the characters harnessing any kind of mystical powers. They’re both manifestations of a stubborn determination or an “I can’t afford to lose” mentality.
  3. Zankuu Tenshouken needs to sound epic in the context of ToDR without making ToD2 feel awkward.

Because the determination aspect is present in both of the artes, we thought that would probably be the best basis upon which to base the arte names. We went with the word Defiant to express that. For Phantasia we decided to hone in on the light-in-the-darkness theme. While we considered just going with the Blade ending for it, we felt like it lacked the right implication. The name we’ve settled on for now is Defiant Light. For Destiny we realized that Defiant Ascent quite literally describes Stahn’s actions as he takes to the sky to oppose the Ae’therians, but it doesn’t sound at all out of step with other arte names in the ToD2 context.

So there you have it! For now we’re using Defiant Light for Phantasia’s Meikuu Zanshouken and Defiant Ascent for Destiny’s Zankuu Tenshouken. They could change again next week or they could stick until release! We just wanted to give you a little bit of insight into the thought process behind something as simple as a few arte names. Do you like them? Hate them? Have a better idea you’d like to share? Let us know what you think in the comments!

About the Author

I'm the translator for Absolute Zero. I also take care of the project updates.

41 Responses to “Mystic Artes *Spoilers*”

  1. I picture you guys debating and arguing for hours on end about those rarely seen artes’ names haha.

    I’ll be honest, I don’t like the adjective Defiant but that’s just my quick opinion since I haven’t checked synonyms. Plus I don’t know any japanese so it might be a really good translation.

    Thanks for the update!

  2. Like the name for Stahn/Kyle’s…but I’m kinda mixed on the word Defiant for Cress. Also, is there anyone doing a ToD2 translation right now?

  3. @XtraT: That’s pretty much exactly what happens. Arte discussions are quite an ordeal.

    @Moondrag: Phantasian Productions has a ToD2 project, but I’m not sure what the status of it is at the moment.

  4. Loving the more frequent updates.

  5. Well, if it’s names to sound cooler in the Mystic Artes area, how about these ideas.

    TOP

    Twilight Finality
    Final Eclipse
    Lunar Blade

    TOD – DC

    Celestial Sword Cutter
    Heavenly Sky Sword
    Shining Halo Blade

    These are just the top ideas that popped in my head, I pick out some names that most of them are related to LIGHT & DARK, but tried to make them sound cooler. Hope this helps, enjoy…

  6. I would almost rather the word “Rebellious” as I feel its connotations fit better with what you’re explaining. At the same time, the word conveys a bit of childishness, which is not what I think you’d want, and Defiant rolls off the tongue better…

  7. Perhaps “Light Rebellion”, then?

  8. Thanks a lot for the regular updates, they’re awesome!

    Zankuu Tenshouken is a complicated Arte to translate because if you look carefully in its original incarnation, Kyle recites each part sort of mimicking the meaning (a slash downward, a slash upwards, a thrust upwards, a flying jab and the finisher). Of course mimicking this in english would be a clustered mess so going for a more standarized name is the way to go.

    Now about the names I think Meikuu (冥空) is attempting to be a made-up word representing “dark space-continuum”. Sort of like Jikuu (時空) is time-space. I think it’s meant to be a double pun on “soaring blade that cuts through darkness” and a pun to the fact it’s related, but above the time-space Base and Arcane Artes like Jikuu Souhazan and Ten’i Souhazan. It might also be a reference to Dhaos’ pocket time-space but I have no idea hahahaha.

    Likewise, I think in the case of Tales of Destiny Remake I feel the “Ten” (天) may be referencing to Heaven/Aether. So it may mean it’s the “blade that pierces through the heavens/Aether” and just like Stahn says cleaving a path for the future (by apparently murdering everyone in Heaven/Aether).

    Sorry for the rant but with that in mind wouldn’t it be better to incorporate “Darkness” and “Heaven” or some variation in the names? Darkness Defiant and Heaven’s Defiant or something of the sort?

  9. I rather like “Defiant”, myself. I think it projects the intent (that you informed here) pretty well and also sounds very nice.

  10. Thanks for putting love into the translation. Keep up the good work!

  11. @kevassa: Thanks for the input. You raise some interesting points.

    We came to the same conclusion about the kanji in Zankuu Tenshouken more or less describing the actual motions of the attack. Like you said, trying to mirror that in English isn’t practical, unfortunately. We were worried that trying to work Heaven or something like it into the name made it too ToDR-specific and kind of left ToD2 hanging out there awkwardly.

    For Meikuu Zanshouken, I really want to avoid including Darkness in the name because it gives the impression that the attack is harnessing some kind of dark power and I don’t think that’s what’s happening. I’m also not sure how deeply I want it to be connected to the space-time artes given that the technique was supposed to have been developed my Cress’s father who had nothing to do with the Eternal Sword.

  12. @throughhim413: Thanks for giving my (Hilda) Rambling some thought, hahahahahaha.

    I think Heaven could technically work with ToD2 given its strong theme with defying God and the open-ended meaning of Heaven (which if you decide to go with that and not Aether for ToDr could mean both the Aether and the Christian conception of Heaven, where God lies).
    Honestly I’m ok with Ascent too, specially if the translation team’s wish is to create a stronger tie to the official localization of Kouyoku Tenshou(Angelic Ascent) from Tales of Graces f.

    Now, I’m no native English speaker so I apologize if I misinterpret but if you word it “Darkness Defiant” wouldn’t it mean “one who gives the middle finger to darkness”?
    Unlike the original official localization “DOrk Blade” which implies its harnessing darkness, which yeah it’s something that’s totally wrong, it sounds to me it’d fit more the original kanji trying to imply an Arte able to cut through darkness.

    I realize it changes the order of words in case of using “Defiant Ascent” and “Darkness Defiant” but I feel it’s a better compromise than using “Light”.
    I’m gonna get bitten for it but I feel at least a portion of the original meaning should be kept since “Defiant” and “Light”, while clever and in tune with the theming, are not present in the original kanji. Furthermore the Arte, as far as I know, is non-elemental in its various incarnations so “Light” would be kinda misleading.

    Of course, if the team decides to keep those names I’d respect the decision but just thought to express my thoughts and nag around the internet shamelessly a bit.
    Keep up the good work!

  13. @kevassa: We’re using Aethersphere as in the original ToD localization, so I feel like Heaven would complicate the issue. Generally we try to tie back to as many of the official arte localizations as we can, although mystic artes aren’t quite as strict with that even on the official side.

    Darkness Defiant would imply that the darkness is doing the defiance. To do it the way you want, it would have to be something like Defying Darkness, which I can’t say I’m crazy about. I agree with you on the elemental implication being problematic, though. That’s one of the reasons I’m not 100% settled on Defiant Light. Of course, if we include Darkness in the name, it has the same issue, just with a different element.

    There’s rarely a simple solution to these things, which is why we go in circles debating them even internally. Still, I welcome the debate.

  14. Nice update! I’m still on N4 learning japanese so its very interesting seeing new kanji and your interpretations on it (kevassa’s too), keep it up!

    I can’t say I can add much to this conversation, but if I’m allowed to suggest something… I think something along the lines of “Soaring Heaven’s Blade” would fit Cress theme pretty well.

    For Stahn I don’t know… I never played Destiny so I’m just waiting for your patch to play it (or to git gud on japanese, whichever comes first!).

    I loved your patch on Phantasia PSX and Innocence DS and really appreciate your job on the Tales Series, especially with the further worsening of the series as of lately, it really made me appreciate that much more the older titles.

  15. I’ve thought about it a little bit, and even whipped out a thesaurus after reading through your points and the meaning the original name brought.
    What about using the word dawn/morning in place of light? It makes the point of light dispelling darkness very well.

    Relentless Dawn
    Dawnbreaker
    Pillar of Light
    Break of Dawn
    etc.

  16. @phobitree: I do like the word Dawn. It was one of my early frontrunners and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to work it into Meikuu Zanshouken. I had a few that I thought were decent (I really wanted to make Dawnbreak work), but the issue I ran into was that I really couldn’t come up with a good equivalent for Zankuu Tenshouken.

  17. @throughhim413: I see.

    Aspire, aspiring.
    Perhaps Ascendant Dawn / Dawn Ascendant
    I also like the word Crest, and if you were to use Dawnbreak, Dawncrest might work. It feels epic for ToDR but maybe not unreasonable in ToD2.

    This is quite difficult. I can see why you are having trouble deciding. I see the mirroring you spoke of, and why it is so important.

    Defiant is a great word that you’ve chosen, but I cant understand why it still feels off to me.

    There was one I got a little far with thinking about. Recompense. It means to repay, to absolve, purify, even reaches to justice. It seems to fit both if imperfect. Oh well.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

  18. @phobictree: Crest ends up tying us into Falcon’s Crest, Lloyd’s mystic arte from Symphonia. It’s actually a clever tie-in if you intended it (and a fortuitous one if you didn’t) given the shared kanji between the two artes. The Japanese name for Falcon’s Crest is Tenshou Souhazan (天翔蒼破斬), the Tenshou being the same two characters that appear in latter half of Zankuu Tenshouken (斬空天翔剣). I’ll have to take that under consideration.

  19. Interesting. Can’t wait to play.

  20. Awesome. Seems like the discussion has come a long way. Haha Great update though. It was quite interesting. Looking forward to the next one!

  21. Shadow’s Bane
    Heaven’s Bane

    Darknesses Bane seems a bit wrong

    But maybe those don’t sound particularly defiant? How about

    Spiting Darkness
    Spiting Heaven

  22. The good thing is that you take the time to ponder and try to find relations between artes or trying to figure out a background for their Japanese naming. Namco doesn’t seem to be doing that at all anymore, so that makes your translations a lot more natural and “lore-friendly”, which we probably all appreciate a lot. Just keep going, you’re doing a great job!

  23. @D: What about Evil’s Bane for Cless?

  24. Hello throughhim413 and Kingcom, first of all I just want to say thank you for doing this I’m really excited to play this game second I’m not trying to rush you guys or anything but about what percent is the translation of the game done? third is there any way people can donate to you guys I played ToP for psx which you guys translated and now I’m waiting for this translation so I feel like a donation although maybe not much would be nice to do.

  25. @throughhim413
    Dawn Breaker for Cress
    and Way to the Dawn for Stahn maybe?
    Like phobictree, I do feel a bit unsure about the word ”Defiant” and quite like the term ”Dawn” in relation to the meaning of those MA.

    I’m not sure if Way to the Dawn would be ”too long” or have to many word for a special attack, but I feel it illustrates well that imagery of ”struggle”, or upward ”Ascent” in Stahn’s Quest.

    The word ”Breaker” evokes sheer force, and in Cress’ case, sheer force of will, and Dawn, like mentioned by phobictree, is very good at illustrating the ”dispelling of darkness” concept.

    Those are just ideas though.

  26. Rising Dawn for Stahn?

  27. Meikuu Zanshouken = Dawn Bringer, from greek name Heosphoros.

  28. I dunno about “stubborn determination”. These artes were originally meant to be Mystic Artes even if Kyle has one as a base – they’re both ultimate techniques, the culmination of all the training-from-hell and every previously learnt arte. These names blatantly scream “God-killing Hissatsus” to me. Whatever other meanings they hold, I see less “I-can’t-afford-to-lose” and more “I-win-because-I-have-this-move”.

    Sadly, the best I can offer only works if there was no need to worry about letter limits.

    冥空斬翔剣 – Transcendental Blade
    斬空天翔剣 – Ascendental Blade

    With the “-al” to keep the same number of syllables if syncing with on-screen motion were a concern.

    Alternatively, if one were fixated on keeping the “flying-sword-cleaving-darkness/heaven” meaning:

    冥空斬翔剣 – Transinumbrant Blade
    斬空天翔剣 – Transingressant Blade

    Although I seriously doubt there would be space for that many letters without some hardcore haxxorz.

  29. Pah! Just call it ‘Towering Blade/Dawn’ and ‘Sliding Blade/Dawn’ (or Falling/Receding Blade or similar) and be done with it. Simple, capisce?

  30. …Actually, it now strikes me that “Intransgressant Blade” would probably work better with “Transinumbrant Blade” since it replicates the position swap of the 斬 in the names. And it is how the affixes are usually applied onto that particular word.

    Speaking of which, I would also like to point out that since 空 also commonly means “sky”, the way 斬空天翔剣 has been split up in the romanization in the post (“zankuu tenshouken”) lends more to a translation in the way of “heavenly-flying-blade-cutting-the-skies” than “flying-blade-cutting-across-heaven”.

  31. Transcendent and Ascendant (without “-al”) seem like options to consider, but are the rest of those common English words? I agree with the observation about Zankuu Tenshouken… I think that’s what throughhhim meant and it was just lost in simplification of the translation, as cutting the heavens/skies are largely synonymous in English. Also IIRC both High Ohgeez are primarily used in desperate moments, such as being at critical HP, being in Spirit Blast mode, or being beaten down by the final boss, so I wouldn’t say they’re necessarily less about stubborn determination and more about showing off awesomeness.

    There should be plenty of space for whichever names are desired, as an aside.

  32. Good to see updates!

  33. The stems of both, “umbra” and “transgress”, are English words, although not what I would call that common (particularly “umbra”). “Trans-” and “In-” are, of course, both common English prefixes. That said, at the end of the day, every one of those comes from Latin and in Latin “inumbrant” is a valid present participle of the first-declension verb “inumbro” (“to cast a shadow”). “Transinumbrant” would therefore mean something to the effect of “going across/beyond shadows”. “Transgress” is more common and is generally to the effect of “going beyond established restrictions”, usually in the context of a law. The idea is of going beyond something held sacred (i.e. “transgressing the heavens”).

    “Transcendant”/”Transcendent” works too, but I personally feel that on its own, its implication is more of going beyond “mortal” limits than of “sacred” limits. On the other hand, “transgress” does carry a more negative connotation than “transcend”, so pick your poison.

    I will grant that the adjectival form of “umbra” in English is usually “umbral” as opposed to “umbrant” and “transgressive” as opposed to “transgressant”… which would be the present participle of the same word in French. I will admit, I am a tad unsure if it is grammatically possible to use “-ant” to makes adjectives from both. I’ll also admit that the “in-” prefix is mostly redundant and I put it there to make up the syllable count.

    Even if these artes are used in “pinch” situations, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on whether the names themselves should reflect that, especially when Kyle can spam the move regardless of situation (as can be done with Mystic Artes in other games too).

  34. I will concede that “Intransgressant” is potentially vague. The “in-” suffix in “Intransgress” usually serves to negate the meaning of the stem in English. But because the word is used as an adjective, “Intransgressant/Intransgressive Blade” will have multiple possible meanings; either “blade-that-makes-intrangression-happen” or “blade-that-is-not-transgressible” or “blade-that-cannot-transgress”. I suppose one could say it works to parallel the vagueness of the Japanese name, but then most Arte names are word soup in Japanese anyway.

    On reflection, “Transingressant” was a particularly bad idea. My base for that was “Ingress”, which is also an actual English word (that is not common), but although both “transgress” and “ingress” come from the same Latin stem (“gradior”/”gradus”; also, little mistake in the previous post about the verb “umbro”, that was meant to be “first conjugation” not “first declension”) the meaning of “ingress” in English is simply “to enter”. It does have a celestial meaning in Astronomy, but I suspect most people would be quicker to connect the word with a certain mobile F2P game rather than with anything involving a heavenly connotation.

  35. Man, interesting connotations with those words to the various languages today and in the past. But even I don’t think many people here would understand many of those words as they unfortunately aren’t used in the modern language (or not much at all).
    I do follow what you said about the English and Latin stems of these wordings. I do know what transgress or transgression mean. But even I think the American localizers back then wouldn’t even have come up with these words. Like them I think we should fall on the bias of simplicity, throughhim. You can check my comment with the ideas above. But your choice on whether you want to use utterly perfect words as Dissent suggests or the simpler labels.

  36. It’s true; I doubt most players would be able to wrangle out the meaning of something like “transinumbrant”. Which, incidentally, was why my best suggestions were “Transcendent” and “Ascendent” (¬_¬).

    The other two were attempts at a close meaning translation, audience notwithstanding. If I had to make a cynical Kajitani-style guess at what an official Bamco localization for 斬空天翔剣 would be, I would guess something like “Royal Skybreaker”, assuming they even cared enough about motion-syncing to keep the number of syllables. And possibly “Swift Assassin(ation)” for 疾空連殺剣 (“Shikkuurensatsuken”) the precursor arte Kyle needs to trigger Zankuutenshouken.

    Assuming “Dark Blade” was mostly due to space restrictions, I would’ve guessed something like “Rising/Soaring Darkbreaker” for 冥空斬翔剣 but judging from Eternia, they evidently they wanted something more “final” for the Albane Ultimate Move. Something that would be “all-bane” (geddit?).

  37. The last thing I wanna say is that 冥空斬翔剣 and 斬空天翔剣 may not actually be as related as they appear at first glance. Looking at the arte lists for Radiant Mythology 2/3 and Tales of Commons, there do appear to be multiple “zanshouken” artes including 連塵斬翔剣 (“renjinzanshouken”), 幻魔斬翔剣 (“genmazanshouken”) and 魔神斬翔剣 (“majinzanshouken”). Two of these are Arcane Artes and one is a Base Arte. Apart from 斬空天翔剣 (“zankuutenshouken”) there is also another “tenshouken” move, which is 狼牙天翔剣 (“rougatenshouken”), a “Souma Arte” (which appears to be ToC’s closest parallel to Mystic Artes).

    Notably, both “majinzanshouken” and “rougatenshouken” appear on the same ToC character and do not seem to be related, as Souma Artes do not build off Base Artes but come from equipment.

    As it happens, none of these have been officially translated into English, which would make the job much easier. Most Artes containing 天翔 (“tenshou”) appear to have officially been translated with “ascent” or “descent” (i.e. 月華天翔刃 “gekkatenshoujin”, “Luna Ascendant”), but the only other Arte with 斬空 that I can find, 斬空刃無塵 (“zankuumujinshou”), is Asbel’s Mystic Arte “Expunging Sword” and the “Expunging” appears to come from 無塵 (“mujin) rather than 斬空 (“zankuu”).

    So on a more serious note, I suspect an official localisation that isn’t completely screwed up would translate 斬空天翔剣 as “Furious Ascent” or “Riving Ascendant” or thereabouts. 冥空斬翔剣, meanwhile, would probably be translated separately as “Darkness Destroyer”, 連塵斬翔剣 as “Purging Destroyer”, 幻魔斬翔剣 as “Phantom Destroyer” and 魔神斬翔剣 as “Demon Destroyer” (or “x Slasher” or “x Cleaver” or whatever they think “zanshouken” should be translated as).

  38. Correction for above: Asbel Mystic Arte is 斬空刃無塵衝 (“zankuujinmujinshou”). The same explanation applies.

    And considering the localisation of Asbel’s 旋狼牙 (“senrouga”) as “Wolfwind Fang”, 狼牙天翔剣 (“rougatenshouken”) would probably be localized as something like “Wolf-fang Ascendant”.

  39. Probably beating a dead horse by this point, but now that I’ve taken a look through some of the official localizations for similar Arte names, I’ll give my best take on official-localization-style names that conform to Absolute Zero’s stringent requirements.

    斬空天翔剣 – “Terminal Ascent”/”Terminal Ascension”. “Ascent” in conformity with the usual translations of “tenshou” and “terminal” as a translation of “zankuu”. Sounds cool enough to be an ultimate attack, not-too-mystical and vague enough that it can mean any number of things involving ascending, terminating, ascending beyond a terminus or a terminal situation. And most people know what both words mean.

    冥空斬翔剣 – “Emergent Termination”. In this case, if we’re looking to draw parallels between the two names (not what I would do personally), you get “termination” for “zanshouken” to parallel “zankuu”. Like “Final Justice”, “Termination” also conveys finality and lethality. “Extermination” works too, but most official names tend to be less than eight syllables, even for Mystic Artes. Off the top of my head, “Absolute Domination” is the only Mystic Arte with as many syllables as this name. “Emergent” comes for several reasons, none of them immediately obvious.

    1. “Meikuu” sounds alot in Japanese like the word “Meikyuu”, which means labyrinth/maze. This is probably intentional, given what the independent kanji means and its use as a desperation attack – Cress is “trapped” and so “Meikuu Zanshouken” sounds like “blade-slicing-through-the-labyrinth”. “Emergent” in English is related to the word “emergency” which we all know – thus “emergency termination”, or an “escape”.

    2. The Absolute Zero interpretation of the kanji is that it implicates a blade cutting through darkness. The word “emergent” carries the connotation of coming from darkness; etymology-wise, this is because “emerge” comes from the Latin “mergo/mergere” plus the “e” prefix. “Mergere” means to “immerse” or “drown”. By implication, that usually means in something that sees little light or hope, like darkness (and “emergo” obviously means to come out from that). Even in English, this meaning has not changed much. “Emergent Termination” can thus also mean “termination-of-that-which-has-emerged-from-darkness” or “emergence-from-darkness-and-termination (of something else)”.

    3. “Meikuu Zanshouken” has myriad other interpretations of when considering the Chinese meaning of “mei”. In Japanese, it refers to just darkness. In Chinese, the same kanji can refer to something hidden or unknown or deep (in shadow). In other words, it is possible to interpret the name as meaning “blade-FROM-darkness” in the sense of being a hidden trump card, or something that only shows itself in the darkest situations, or a blade suddenly swinging out of the (metaphorical) darkness. These, apparently, are not Absolute Zero’s preferred interpretations of the name, but “emergent” captures all of these interpretations by avoiding explicit mention of what it is coming from. In these interpretations, “Emergent Termination” would, literally, mean “termination-that-emerges”.

    This is my final weigh-in for these names. They’re not the perfect solution, as then you have “Demon Termination” for the Base Arte “majinzanshouken”, which carries shades of “Time Disintegration”. But if I were working on an official translation and had to conform to using common English, linking the two and all the requirements set out by Absolute Zero regarding the use of space/time, heaven and desperation connotations, this would be at least close to, if not my final answer.

  40. I would caution against using determination and piercing/light-in-the-darkness as basis for translation of these skills, regardless if the context is correct or not. I would caution against this practice for any other skill or term with lineage if you’ve been doing that. This process kind of takes one definition to create a context base and spins words from that theme base, without much focus for the other possible meanings and their contexts. And this even might be more ok if the translation using the context grounds itself back with the kanji as insurance.

    So like, “Defiant” is reflecting the assumed context base and is not really represented in any of the kanji. “Light” also doesn’t really have a basis in the kanji, even if the confusion with light elemental isn’t a problem. The translation represents the assumed context which is derived from the kanji and peripheral info, but not necessarily representing the kanji themselves. With stuff like skills, I don’t think the translation should have to pass through the context as the only connection to get to the original Japanese. I think ideally the translation connects to the context but also to the Japanese directly on its own without having to travel across the context (this is of course easier said than done). Because relying on that travel is what causes problems. Your translation will be completely wrong if your context is off, instead of having both context and kanji in conjunction justify the usage. The odds of mistranslating kanji are lower than misconstruing context. I think you want to spin words off the kanji base, not the context base of a possible definition. I wouldn’t suggest this for everything but I’d probably play things a little safer for skills and terms.

    To bring it around, my read on Meikuu Zanshouken is not about piercing/cutting through the darkness. Mei can mean dark, dim (brightness), dim (in understanding), can’t see, deep, innermost, profound, the other/next/netherworld. All of these meanings are derived from the kanji origin: cover + sun + hole/hut. You cover up the sun or light source over a hole or hut. I almost think of it as “veil” connotation. Distant, far, xeno- (foreign, strange). In the veil sense, it’s almost like the opposite of Apocalypse, which means uncovering/unveiling/revelation, apo (after) kalypto (cover). But again, these are more context reads from the general sum of the kanji than actual definitions. You seem to have taken Dark and it being a desperation move and created a context and spun words off that theme, without connecting at least back to Dark, a definition of Mei, only the Defiance context off Dark and as a desperation move.

    I would probably take the profound, inner, deep, other world meanings and spin words off that, using a created context as reference. My context is either 1: “slashes that cut to a deep/unseen/veiled/distant/nether dimension/space/realm” “slashes that cut to a metaphysical space”, or 2: “deep/meditative space (imbued) slashes”. I lean towards 2. Meikuu makes me think of “limen” (liminal), like getting to an astral projection space, or perhaps not an actual realm but a mental state that you can’t tap into unless you’ve awakened or meditated enough. Maybe like the Flash accessing the Speed Force, or maybe it’s a force he’s created mentally. This is similar to your idea about it being a desperation move, a willpower determination type thing, but the Mei kanji especially combined with Kuu immediately makes me think it’s more meditative/metaphysical. Whether this is actually some metaphysical plane his mind is creating or connecting to, or if it’s just describing some mental status he’s reached (no dimension/plane/space) is debatable.

    So I probably wouldn’t call it say Meditative/Metaphysical Soaring Slash since these are more context heavy. I would pull it back some and do something like Depth Soaring Slash since Depth is at least represented in the kanji. Or some other word that conveys the context but still ties in the kanji. Obviously these are not good words nor is it an unbreakable rule but I think talking about this process is more important.

    Zankuu
    I mostly agree it is about cutting the sky. Whether the sky is referring to the heavens/Ae’therians in the Destiny context is debatable. I guess it can be Defying/Defiance. I think of it maybe as cutting ties or breaking bonds/fetters? I however can’t agree with the sort of motive to have a name so it’s balanced to sound awesome in R but not over the top in 2. I understand this is just being cautious, but why should there be worry that Zankuu might sound too epic in 2 when it’s in the company of any of Judas’ hiougis? Girenshoureizan, Majinrengokusatsu, Loni’s ShintenRekku… You don’t think those would get epic names comparable to Zankuu? Just treat all hiougis from any game equally and make them all epic. It doesn’t really matter that hiougis are spammable in 2 because it’s just the nature of the combo system they designed in that game. Hiougis aren’t as depreciated in 2 as it seems.

    Zankuu btw has a prominence in 2 already. The unused Kyle line was something like Witness my inherited skill, it was planned to be important/storytied in its own game. It basically took over the spot as Kyle’s signature hiougi by ND3 over Shououzetsurenshou, which is more powerful. Zankuu is basically the family ties hiougi and Shouou is Kyle’s self-made hiougi (the son surpassing the father). That’s why Shouou is more about wind because Kyle favors wind.

    I’d also say that while Zankuu and Meikuu might be spiritually related moves, and maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think they need to parallel each other to the degree you’re attempting (both having a shared word). Zankuu, being a TOD2 creation, is like most of TOD2’s moves. They’re like parallel/antimatter universe RIFFS on normal universe moves. Majinken is like to Souhajin as Hienrenkyaku is to Hirenzan as Moukorengekiha (Rending Tiger) is to Toryuurengekiha (Draco’s Fury), but I wouldn’t necessarily need or want Souhajin to have a Fang word to share with Majinken by calling it Azure Fang or something. They’re related skills but not necessarily pedigree skills. They’re fun riffs/inspirations of the originals and less related as say all the Rain moves that spun out of Akisazame. I don’t think the right move is to make them share the same word. TODR moves that come from TOD2 should sound like inspirations of normal universe moves. I might say otherwise if it was like Lloyd’s Tenshousouhazan and Cless’ Jikuusouhazan.

  41. Personally, I feel that Valiant Ascent and Defiant Ascent would be the best options, but I’m sure I’ll be able to roll with whatever you guys decide on.

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